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Author | Topic: What is it that Core didn't tell us about the LE?
Brad Casali Member Posts: 465 From:Sandusky, Ohio, USA Registered: Jun 2001 | posted 08-16-2001 06:00 PM My points arised when I was playing the Tomb of Seth with the Editor. Well, everything went normal until I went on the ground floor and the guide opened up the door to the sand room, and then he ran away with the camera following him. I thought nothing until I thought of the scene in the Lost Library where Lara actually played the harp. Then I thought those had to be cutscenes set off in some way. The guide's face turns expressions, and he runs. There are some special settings for the camera, but I haven't tried it yet. The room in Settomb is Room 70. The one when Core said that we couldn't make cut scenes, well, they were wrong. There's gotta be a way to make Lara play that harp. You can probably make that guard run away but the harp is making me think. What does everyone else think? ------------------ http://www.geocities.com/hicho15/Lpage.html IP: Logged
Alexis Rombaut Member Posts: 143 From:Belgium Registered: Jul 2001 | posted 08-16-2001 06:05 PM The same applies to the pool-and-hook in Coastal Ruins. [This message has been edited by Alexis Rombaut (edited 08-16-2001).] IP: Logged
Brad Casali Member Posts: 465 From:Sandusky, Ohio, USA Registered: Jun 2001 | posted 08-16-2001 06:08 PM I just found out that the object has in the library, the key lock, has a -422 in the OCB. Someone should try to put that number into another key lock. I also understand that you use that so you can make Lara climb on the statue in the Temple of Poseidon. I still think that we can make cuts though. ------------------ http://www.geocities.com/hicho15/Lpage.html IP: Logged
Alexis Rombaut Member Posts: 143 From:Belgium Registered: Jul 2001 | posted 08-16-2001 06:12 PM If we really want to understand flipeffects and triggers we have to "think" like the computer does. A WAD contains more then meshes and textures. It has several data linked to the objects, such how to put a multimesh object together and much more. Several important modifications of an object must be stored in the WAD too. I personally think that code bits are stored in WAD too. Don't think that by "hardcoded" is always ment in the exe file. A great example of this is Vehicale_Extra, although in the same gameslot for the bike and the jeep, the Vehicale_Extra of KV5 and City or totally different. So we can conclude that the object contains new information to make lara sit. If you import export and object (TRwest) you get more then just a new mesh and textures. I am certain that the object LARA (M1) is DIFFERENT from WAD to WAD, certainly in WADS used in cutscenes. I have tested this. I have taken a random WAD and noted its size. Using TRwest I imported Lara from StreetBazar which contains a cutscene, saved the WAD and compaired the size. An increase of 50 kB!!! So the animations for the cutscenes are stored allong the obects used in the cutscene. Therefore a cutscene made by: example 1: The flippeffect 45 makes the exe file to look for object M39 (whatever it is Von Croy or the Queen Mum). Each different timer makes the exe file to load up a new graphic setting how to compose the object and how to move it. This data is stored in additional data of M39 in your WAD. Using AI follow and triggers to load new graphics you get your cutscenes and the movement of M39. example 2 The cutscene of StreetBazar and others must work in the same way. They are triggered by a specific flippect along with camera's (the 16 different code bits for the camera makes it clear that they are used for more then just flybies). The specific one of StreetBazar accesses the Lara and the unlucky bloke. If we want to make a custom cutscene we need a way to access and modify the additionnal data stored with the objects. [This message has been edited by Alexis Rombaut (edited 08-16-2001).] IP: Logged
Brad Casali Member Posts: 465 From:Sandusky, Ohio, USA Registered: Jun 2001 | posted 08-16-2001 06:25 PM Very good analogy. Can you explain why the fact that when I try Flipeffect 45 it doesn't set. IP: Logged
Alexis Rombaut Member Posts: 143 From:Belgium Registered: Jul 2001 | posted 08-16-2001 06:40 PM Did have all the correct settings (young Lara, Von Croy?) I heard Michiel is making an AI Edit. This will allow you modifying the additionnal WAD data from above. I think we will be close then... IP: Logged
Brad Casali Member Posts: 465 From:Sandusky, Ohio, USA Registered: Jun 2001 | posted 08-16-2001 06:53 PM Let's hope so. ------------------ http://www.geocities.com/hicho15/Lpage.html IP: Logged
Brad Casali Member Posts: 465 From:Sandusky, Ohio, USA Registered: Jun 2001 | posted 08-17-2001 09:30 AM Okay, but this may sound a bit wierd, but I am so I'm going to explain it: Since you think, Alex, that cuts are triggered by Flipeffect 45s, then why did Core put that Cutscene trigger type in there? Now, for the wierd part: Do you think that Core just put that trigger there to steer us away from thinking that we can really make cuts? ------------------ http://www.geocities.com/hicho15/Lpage.html IP: Logged
Wee Bald Man Moderator Posts: 184 From:Left Luggage Locker #8, Heathrow Airport, London Registered: May 2001 | posted 08-17-2001 09:45 AM Hi Brad, >why did Core put that Cutscene trigger type in there? I don't think that they put them in there for us. They were left behind in the original PRJ file. (If you open the PRJ fresh and select a Flipeffect45 (or 30) trigger and click 'Trigger to Object' there is no object associated with the trigger). >Now, for the wierd part: Do you think that Core just put that trigger there to steer us away from thinking that we can really make cuts? They probably left them in because they didn't have time to take them out. [This message has been edited by Wee Bald Man (edited 08-17-2001).] IP: Logged
Kiopo Member Posts: 739 From:Liverpool, UK Registered: Jul 2001 | posted 08-17-2001 12:53 PM You've got to remember that these small animations are probably hard-coded, they're not like full size animatiions anyway, they seem to be like lara drawing her pistols etc... But your points are very valid. I developed a small program a few weeks ago, to try and discover what all the ocb settings do, and flipeffects. Not all of them I could work out, but I found a few. I am going to try, next, to find out EXACTLY how the cut-scenes are made, with a seperate editor, with AI modifications, or simply with something like 3Ds Max. I am hoping against hope it isn't the latter, or the AI mods, because its useless to us if thats the case. A seperate editor, we could do, as long as we found out exactly what to do. Also, when thinking of cut-scenes etc... Don't think of it like a computer. Think of it like a programmer. More specifically, a game programmer. They'd want to find the least costing, most effective, easiest, less time consuming method, which unfortunately leads me to believe some sort of AI point is used. ------------------ Visit my newly updated site: http://www.tombraiderconnection.8k.com Brand new better look and content, for every TR and TRLE fan Or Email me james.mcc@btinternet.com IP: Logged
Brad Casali Member Posts: 465 From:Sandusky, Ohio, USA Registered: Jun 2001 | posted 08-17-2001 01:24 PM The animation edit is used for making cut scenes. ------------------ http://www.geocities.com/hicho15/Lpage.html IP: Logged
jliboy64 Member Posts: 1134 From:connecticut Registered: Mar 2001 | posted 08-17-2001 01:51 PM ?? there's an animation editor? ------------------ I THANK EVERYONE THAT VOTED FOR ME IN LIL KID'S AWARDS! I GOT 3 AWARDS! THANX! DOWNLOAD COOL OBJECTS HERE NOW! featuring: 1. 3 custom made wads! 2. ***12 NEW OUTFITS! 3. JET PLANE prj file! AN ACTUAL JET PLANE! 4. TERROR SCHOOL LEVEL! and TGA! 5. NEW UPCOMING JCO CHARACTERS AND LEVEL SCREENSHOTS JCO-Jliboy's Custom Objects jliboy64@hotmail.com IP: Logged
Wee Bald Man Moderator Posts: 184 From:Left Luggage Locker #8, Heathrow Airport, London Registered: May 2001 | posted 08-18-2001 10:17 AM quote: Originally posted by Brad Casali: The animation edit is used for making cut scenes. Hi Brad, I want to clear this up before it becomes an urban myth. The AnimEditor is not used for creating animation (as in cutscene animation), it is used for creating WADs (which, as we all know, contain some object animation). Some old quotes from the past by two people who worked on Tomb Raider: --------------------------------- Rebecca Shearin: To change anything in a WAD file, the entire WAD has to be reoutput by the WAD editor (otherwise know as animeditor). To reoutput anything you must have ALL the objects and animations for the WAD you want to change. Each object and or animation is a project file containing about six individual files, so you can imagine how many files are needed for each WAD. Also, the animeditor is not as easy to use as the roomeditor - without documentation it would be virtually impossible to use and to create the documentation would be a nightmare. It is a given that there are bugs and workarounds when using proprietary software, but to release it as it is to the public would be pointless since it would be pretty useless without all the necessary files and/or instructions for use.....the bottom line is that it doesn't look like Core will be able to release the animeditor. ----- Maniac44: Being someone who has actually used the Anim Editor (I used it while working on Tomb Raider: The Lost Artefact), I can say that the program is NOT "general public friendly" (a pain in the butt to use). But the most important thing about the Anim Editor is that it can NOT take apart a WAD file (a WAD file is like a TR4 file, once it's made, you can't take the objects out of it). Each object is 6-8 files (depending on if there are sounds, animation, etc.). Those files can be anywhere from .5megs to 2.5megs in size per object. So if you wanted 100 objects, you would need to get 100-200megs worth of information. When we received the objects to make Lost Artefact, we received 4 GIGs worth of files. That would be 6-7 CDs of files and would be fairly expensive to produce for sale to the public. So releasing the Anim Editor doesn't seem like a financially sound option for Eidos/Core. And giving it away would mean doing a download that would take days (even with a fast connection). That doesn't mean the Anim Editor will never be released. But the aforementioned factors have to be considered by Eidos/Core. --------------------------------- IP: Logged
Kiopo Member Posts: 739 From:Liverpool, UK Registered: Jul 2001 | posted 08-19-2001 07:01 AM Ladeda ------------------ Visit my newly updated site: http://www.tombraiderconnection.8k.com Brand new better look and content, for every TR and TRLE fan Or Email me james.mcc@btinternet.com IP: Logged
Number6 Member Posts: 60 From:CANADA Registered: May 99 | posted 08-19-2001 08:33 AM Has Core ever considered the possibility that FANS would probably host such files... Look at what those types of fan did: they could make and edit TR3 level before Core release its editor. And if the instruction are too technical, well, look at how they (the level builders) are dealing with this in this forum... Maybe they should just ask the fan if someone would be willing to host this? IP: Logged
Michiel Member Posts: 216 From:14th floor Registered: Jan 2001 | posted 08-19-2001 01:44 PM But how can 6 GB from the object data be compressed to only a small wad? And the wad still contains all information needed. I think the animation editor is just a stupid program. Of cource I don't know how bg these files are when compressed. I don't know how the cut-scenes are created, but there are cut-scene triggers in the levels with a number. These are in the script file and point to a location in the cutscene.pak file. These files contain data like the number of objects used. But I think Core must release the cut-scene editor to have it work. And for the animation editor: If core just releases the source code, it's enough. IP: Logged
Kiopo Member Posts: 739 From:Liverpool, UK Registered: Jul 2001 | posted 08-19-2001 02:18 PM Core wouldn't release the source code of the tools. There not that stupid!!! Multi-Million pounds that TR created and they give the code for the tools to us. Clever!!!!! ------------------ Visit my newly updated site: http://www.tombraiderconnection.8k.com Brand new better look and content, for every TR and TRLE fan Or Email me james.mcc@btinternet.com IP: Logged

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